CAROLL SPINNEYThe puppeteer behind Big Bird and Oscar the Grouch reminisces about Jim Henson, Nancy Reagan and what he wishes he'd said to Johnny Cash
What was the first puppet show you ever saw? When I was five, a group of college kids came to our school. They did Three Little Kittens Who've Lost Their Mittens. I was just enthralled. My mother was Irish and a very artistic lady. For my eighth birthday she bought a Punch and Judy show. She didn't know it, but she'd set me on a career.
So you immediately saw this as potential career?Yes. I was 12 years old when television came along. There was a very popular puppet show for kids. It was just a man with an oven mitt, very poorly done. The puppeteer didn't even know how to lip sync. I thought, wow, I'm 12 years old and I'm already better than a grown-up.
What did you classmates make of it all? They teased me. They accused of playing with dolls. I was bullied, I guess. The fact that my first name was Caroll didn't help. I worked many times with Johnny Cash over the years. But I always wish I'd told him that that song of his was actually about me: A Boy Named Sue. That was my life.
Tell us how 'Sesame Street' came along.Well, first I spent 10 years in Boston doing a kid's TV show called Bozo's Big Top. It was fun, but I wasn't making any money. Then Jim Henson saw me perform at a puppet festival and hired me for this new show he was developing. He had two characters in mind for me, a grouchy character who lived in a trash can and a large silly bird.
Was it an immediate hit? Oh yes. It grew so rapidly, even the creators were amazed. People ask how we got so many amazing stars on the show. But most of the time, the stars approached us. The very first we had was Pete Seeger. We had Robert De Niro, Candice Bergen. George Harrison asked to be on the show, but was turned down. Can you imagine? My God, he's a Beatle!
Did any of these stars have trouble working with puppets? Some. I remember Johnny Carson would always ignore the puppets and talk to the puppeteers.
Didn't you once have a run-in with Nancy Reagan?We did. We were invited to the White House for the Easter Egg Roll. There was us and the cast of Annie. Some of these acts had driven five hours to be there and she was a little short with everyone. But to be fair, her husband had just been shot about a week earlier. So that might have had something to do with it.
One of the most fascinating events in 'Sesame Street' history was the death of Will Lee, who played Mr Hooper. Tell us about that.Will Lee was a Jewish actor from the 1930s and 1940s. In the 1950s, Senator McCarthy called him in front of the House UnAmerican Activities Committee and accused him of being a communist. Now I knew this man well. He believed in decent rights for workers. But believe me, he was no communist. He was a wonderful actor and a dear friend.
What happened when Mr Hooper died? Our audience was three- and four-year-old kids and Mr Hooper was a grandfather figure on the show. The scriptwriters could have just said he'd moved to Florida. Instead we decided to deal with it directly. Big Bird drew a picture of Mr Hooper and wanted to give it to him. The others said, 'Don't you remember? Mr Hooper died.' Big Bird said, 'I know, but when is he coming back?' They said, 'Mr Hooper isn't coming back.' The tears were real, because we all loved the man so much.
In the process, an entire generation of children learned about death for the first time. Was there a tremendous pressure therefore to get it right?There was. Lots of experts were consulted and all sorts of research was done. Big Bird was told, 'Mr Hooper isn't coming back. But we'll always remember him and we'll still be able to do the things that we loved to do with him.' It went out on Thanksgiving and it was truly one of the best shows we ever did.
Why are you in Ireland at Christmas?It's a tradition. My mother's name was Fagan. My wife's father was Gilroy and her mother was Noonan. We have red heads on both side of the family. This is our 16th Christmas in Ireland. We're staying in Ashford Castle. They keep our decorations for us. Every year we get a tree in Morley's in Ballinrobe. A friend of ours in the States always asks why we come here, he says it's cold and damp. I say yes, but inside it's warm and jolly.
