The Taoiseach denied that claims for compensation by those abused in industrial schools could cost as much as €1 billion.
Mr Ahern said the numbers seeking redress could be in the region of 3,000 to 5,000. "We do not know how many people will lodge claims. It is still in the region of 3,000, but it could increase. People are talking about higher figures, but we do not think it will reach anything like €1 billion." He said the cost would depend on large claims, and some of the cases were very serious.
Defending the deal with CORI, Mr Ahern said: "The Government made a decision that we should find a way to fast-track these cases and not put each individual through decades of trauma in the courts, as CORI and the religious orders wanted. The Government stood up for these people, as no Government had bothered to for 40 years. The Government is proud of its action." There were heated exchanges, for the second day, between Mr Ahern and the Labour party leader, Mr Pat Rabbitte, who again accused the Government of concluding a "disgraceful deal for taxpayers" in indemnifying religious orders.
Mr Rabbitte asked Mr Ahern why he was still "muttering" about a figure between 2,000 and 5,000. "Is it a fact that if 2,000 cost €500 million, 4000 are likely to cost €1 billion. What is the mystery about that? He obviously had no audit done of the properties or assets." Asked to confirm if the deed of indemnity, which, he said, was never debated in the House, had been drafted in the office of Arthur Cox solicitors for CORI, the Taoiseach said an initial draft agreement drawn up by the firm was proposed in 2001.
"It was not accepted at the time. In January 2002, the minister made the agreement in principle on the amount of the congregations' contribution towards the redress schemes. Officials of the Departments of Finance, Education and Science and the Attorney General's office set out to hammer out the details of the agreement. The Arthur Cox document was used as a starting point, but was substantially revised to accommodate the requirements of the State."
Mr Ahern said agreement had been reached that the congregations would contribute €128 million towards the redress scheme. It was agreed €41 million would be paid in cash, of which just over €34 million had been lodged to date. It was intended by CORI that €12.7 million would be placed in an educational trust, but this was not accepted by the Department and a minimum cash amount of €41 million was later agreed. Part of the €77 million deal in property transfers was agreed so that the State could refuse to accept any property offered and ask for alternative properties.
CORI originally wanted to go back 10 years on the property issue, but this was rejected. A sum of €10 million was put forward for counselling, and there was a commitment to continue with it even after the money was spent.
Mr Rabbitte said the Taoiseach had done a "recklessly negligent deal for the same reason he was recklessly negligent with the public finances because he wanted to win votes coming up to a general election". Mr Ahern said if the Government had not acted, those who were abused and suffered in the 1930s, 1940s,1950s and 1960s, up until the Kennedy report in the 1970s advising closure of the institutions, would not have been dealt with.
