It may be her last round of teachers' conferences, but Mary Hanafin is enjoying her 'perfect job', writes Seán Flynn, Education Editor
Power of the Minister
Q. You are someone from a teaching background who probably always wanted to be the Minister for Education. In office, have you found you had more or less power than you envisaged ?
A. It has been exactly as I envisaged. I have always felt very comfortable in this job and I knew my way around it from day one. From my teaching days, I also knew many of the key people. For example, I would have known John White (the general secretary of the ASTI) from my time as a school steward in Sion Hill.
There is a great deal of consultation and a genuine sense of partnership in education. Sometimes, the delay in getting things done can be frustrating but it is worth it. The standardised tests at primary level are being introduced and school inspections have been published without any great problem - because there was full consultation.
Education standards
Q. You strike me as someone who is quite pleased with the overall standard of the Irish education system, someone who is not an advocate of fundamental change?
A. We have to keep changing and improving. But yes, by and large, we have a very good education system. We are fortunate to have very talented teachers. We have also seen changes like the new Primary Curriculum which is having such a positive impact in primary schools.
At second-level, I don't favour any fundamental change in the exam system. The independent, objective nature of the Leaving Cert is its real strength. I am supportive of that. I am not keen on self-directed learning for very young students. I have never accepted that students at 15/16 could choose their own courses and go at their own pace.
There is more we need to do in terms of technology in the classroom. We need to do more to engage some young boys but that is a worldwide problem.
Young people in disadvantaged schools and Travellers have told me that their teachers expect less from them. That can be a problem because if the teachers expect less they are going to get less.
Highlights and low points
Q. Reflecting now on your time in education what have been the highlights and where were the low-points?
A. A number of issues stand out. More than anything else I am thrilled with the progress we have made in special needs. The whole area has been transformed with 5,000 extra teachers in the past five years. One-in-five primary teachers is now dealing with special needs, while the number of special needs assistants has increased from 300 to 8,000 in five years.
Other highlights? The progress we have made in providing a better platform through the DEIS initiative to combat educational disadvantage is one. The one I am chuffed about is the change in Irish at Leaving Cert which will see a greater stress on oral skills.
Longer-term, I think the development and support for fourth level (post- graduate education) will prove to be very significant. In 10 years' time people will see that as being a key contributor to the success of the Irish economy.
The low points? The Navan bus crash stands out. You remember the victims and the families. I also recall the principal and teachers at the school - who themselves were shattered by what has happened but who were expected to show great leadership and care and support. They were wonderful.
Another upsetting part of the job is when you are drawn into personal cases involving the rights of special needs or autistic children. You have huge sympathy in the individual case but you have to articulate the overall department policy. That can be difficult.
Class size campaign
Q. Were you taken aback by the momentum which built around the INTO campaign on class size?
A. I was surprised by the need for the campaign when the INTO knew - and have known for two years - exactly what we were doing. And they knew it would be a priority for this and the next government. But I accept the bona fides of the argument on smaller class sizes.
Was I surprised ? No. Parents are very loyal to their local schools and schools are a huge part of the local community. I have visited over 400 and I see that . . . so when your teacher asks you as parents to get involved you will do it.
Extra teachers
Q. The announcement a fortnight ago of 4,000 extra primary teachers by the Taoiseach was seen by many as a U-turn. Today, teachers will be expecting details of where these 4,000 teachers will go and what impact they will have. Can you provide that?
A. We started on a teacher allocation schedule of one for 29 pupils. Last year, we brought it down to 1:28. This year, it will be 27 in September and in the following three years it will decrease to 26, 25 and 24. And that's what I will be telling them. Of the 4,000 new teachers, we reckon about 2,000 of those will be necessary just to cover the increase in population. The rest will be needed then for the class size reduction.
The international evidence shows that lower class sizes, accompanied by changes in teaching style, can make a real difference. There was no U-turn. We said that given the other priorities that have come along in special education, disadvantage and language support, we wouldn't be able to reduce class sizes as much as we would have liked by this year. We never said that we weren't committed to reducing them in future.
On the contrary, I have always said that more needed to be done to reduce class sizes. I was just upfront about what was actually possible in the past two years.
I had already explained to the INTO that the figure for class size from 2007 onward would be dealt with in the context of the Fianna Fáil election manifesto. As the Taoiseach has set out we are committed to providing another 4,000 primary teachers in the next five years and this will reduce class sizes considerably.
Overcrowding
Q. Do you accept that the Government was damaged by the class size campaign. The average member of the public cannot understand why their child is suffering in an overcrowded classroom when Exchequer funds are so healthy.
A. First of all , I don't accept children are suffering. I have always said you can have a very very good teacher in a big class. TDs will tell you how never once in the last five or 10 years was the class size issue raised. They would say it was never a problem but it became an issue. No one ever raised it until the INTO began a campaign on it. Now, we accept it is the right thing to do . . . to reduce class size. But we had started on the path and we are going to finish the path. No other party has made anything like the same commitment.
Was the Government damaged? No. When our own people attended the INTO meetings and explained how other priorities - like special needs and newcomer children - had emerged they got that message across . But it's a case of eaten bread, I'm afraid.
It is always the next item on the agenda for everybody. Okay, you did that, what's next please? And there is always the case that it did not affect my child. And I am not interested. Okay you are doing it for special needs but that is not my child. But I would still stand over it as a policy because special needs children did not have a voice for themselves.
Under-investment
Q. One of the developing issues in education is our relative under- investment compared with other OECD states. We are close to the bottom of the OECD spending at second-level. On class size, for example, why is there not enough money to help special needs and newcomer children - and still reduce class size?
A. And provide 5,000 new teachers and put in another 5,000 classrooms to go with them . . . Every one of these is a cost. The average cost of a teacher is now €60,000 when you factor in allowances and other costs. Our class size in the junior cycle at second level is actually below the OECD average.
What they never point out is how our teachers are well paid compared to other countries; teachers' salaries are well up there. Overall, I will always put the case for more funding for education. Funding has trebled in the past decade but we have to make progress on all fronts across all levels of the education system.
Sudden closures
Q. You have been critical of schools closing for half days on Fridays and other sudden closures which affect parents. Is it time to take a tougher stand here?
A. Yes teachers have to be more cognisant of the wider community including parents. I had a situation two weeks ago when I was due to open two schools. I was told I could not go after one-thirty on a Friday; that is not acceptable. Courtesy has to be extended to parents in relation to things like school closures, orals and in-service training.
Fee-paying schools and grind schools
Q. One of the striking features of Irish education in recent years has been the fall-off in enrolment at State schools, especially in Dublin, as middle class parents opt for fee-paying and grind schools? How worrying is this trend?
A. It is all based on image and perception. There is no difference in the quality of education on offer. There is no difference in the quality of teaching.
Fee-paying schools, however, tend to attract something of an aura about themselves because they sometimes don't enrol students from their own locality. This can have a negative impact on the local community and it is something I am not happy about. I would like to see fee-paying schools as a matter of routine designating their local national school as their main feeder school.
I have been critical, as you know, about the practice of some schools cherry picking or closing doors to those with special needs or newcomer children. The feedback I am getting tells me that schools have become more aware of their responsibilities and parents more aware of their rights.
Irish society
Q. Your comments about "cash rich and time poor" last year struck a chord with many. You seem somewhat uneasy with the state of Irish society?
A. I think money and high levels of disposable income have generated new pressures. You have people who believe their children must go to a fee-paying school simply because they have the money to pay for it. People are feeling pressurised to have a holiday home here or somewhere else.
It also seems to me we are putting a different value on different lives. If there is a murder and it involved a Lithuanian gang or worse still someone who is "known to the Garda" somehow this life is not given the same value. It worries me when radio phone-in shows like Liveline give important items - like recent allegations that people walked over a dead man at a Dart station - the same prominence as trivial matters. That worries me.
We are a more selfish society. But I would hope that I have played some role in helping to lead public opinion. Since I spoke about those alcohol-fuelled post-Leaving Cert binges, schools have been doing more to organise alternatives, more constructive breaks in India and Africa for students. Similarly, I am encouraged by evidence that more people are becoming actively involved with their kids in sports clubs - instead of just dumping them there and disappearing. People in education - teachers and indeed the education minister - can have a powerful role in leading public opinion on these societal issues.
Political ambitions
Q. What about your own political ambitions; would you like to stay in Education if that's an option after the election?
A. I love politics and I love education. Put those together and I have my perfect job - and why would anyone want to give up their perfect job voluntarily?
Education is one of the big spending departments and yet everyone says, would you not prefer a bigger ministry? The truth is, you could actually end up in an economic ministry with less of a budget. Everything comes back to education and every person in the country has a view on education. It is a central part of what everybody is interested in. And even if I call to a door now people explain how they have no children themselves but they are delighted I did this or that because of their grandchild or their nephew or whoever. They still take an interest.
I don't know if that is true in other areas. I would love to remain in Education. Normally you would hope to get a five-year run at it. My choice, if I was asked, would be to remain in education.
