The only thing Mr James Gogarty had against Mr Joe Murphy was that he held on to him for so long after he reached 65, when he should have been enjoying himself with his family, the tribunal was told.
Mr Gogarty said he had to go back and keep going. He worked on the Gaiety Theatre Project and then on a house refurbishment in Anglesea Road.
In the early 1980s, there was a lot of trouble between Mr Murphy and Mr Eamonn Andrews about the Gaiety Theatre in Dublin, Mr Gogarty told the tribunal.
Mr Liam Conroy had become involved with the theatre and there was a problem with it. Mr Murphy was in dispute with Mr Andrews, who had a three-year lease on the theatre. Mr Murphy wanted Mr Andrews out at the end of three years. Mr Andrews went to court over the affair and got a 21-year lease. "It broke Joe's heart. Andrews let it go into rack and ruin," said Mr Gogarty.
Mr Conroy succeeded in getting the theatre back in March 1984. Joseph Murphy Structural Engineering (JMSE) then became responsible for the refurbishment of the theatre under his [witness's] management.
Mr Gogarty said that between 1982 and 1984, he travelled to England and came home at weekends. He got a company going which Mr Murphy had bought. One of the projects the company became involved in concerned the Sellafield nuclear plant.
"This was done discreetly as back home there was adverse reaction to the plant," he said. Replying to Mr Gallagher, he said that by the time he returned to this country the turnover of the company was a few million.
He should have been retired as he was 67 then. He brought up the question of his pension again. Mr Conroy wanted him to stay in the company.
Accountants Mr Edgar Wadley and Mr Roger Copsey were handling the liquidation of IFTC bank. Mr Murphy got most of the money back through insurance.
Mr Cooney said that the witness seemed to think he could hop from subject to subject as he thought fit. Could the chairman direct the witness and also Mr Gallagher to have some control over his witness. He had said some outrageous things.
The chairman, Mr Justice Flood, said he would do his best. The problems of having an elderly witness were well known.
He agreed it was ranging wide and far. He asked Mr Gallagher to try to control the witness from going outside the parameters.
"In the meantime, this witness is defaming people right left and centre in front of the media and it will be broadcast. That's not fair, Mr Chairman. It's an abuse of this tribunal," Mr Cooney said.
Counsel said Mr Gogarty was taking advantage of his position and his age, and it was most damaging to people who were not there and had no notice of these accusations. Mr Gogarty said: "I referred earlier there to the IFTC and I think it's very relevant to what I am saying. For God's sake, it's the truth, I'm not making any allegations at all. I have sworn it." The chairman said: "Mr Gogarty will you please listen to me. I understand you have a number of personal matters you feel aggrieved about. I`m doing my best and I am trying to confine the evidence to matters in relation to the Irish companies. What we want to know here is your situation in Ireland from 1986 onwards."
Mr Gallagher asked the witness to tell him about the Gaiety Theatre and who he had met and dealt with.
Mr Gogarty said he was the project engineer. He was paid by JMSE and wages were defrayed by JMSE and were adjusted at the end of the year. It was an inter-company arrangement.
Mr Conroy founded Reliable Construction Company Ltd, which was used as a device to ameliorate the costs involved. A few well-known people came to look at it. Mr George Redmond, assistant city and county manager for Dublin, was brought to see it. They all adjourned to the Westbury Hotel for a drink, tea, or something else. It was evident that Mr Redmond and Mr Conroy were more than sociable, they were friends, and they were aware of the business and work.
It was mentioned to him that Mr Redmond should get a ticket for a box at the theatre and he passed on the word to Mr Gerry Downes, the chief accountant.
When asked what he drank at the Westbury, Mr Gogarty said tea - he wouldn't drink coffee. He wouldn't bother his head to drink. Now he could not drink.
Mr Gallagher asked if Mr Murphy had any meetings with him. Mr Gogarty replied "very little". He would ring him at any time of the night or morning. Mr Murphy had not much involvement with the day-to-day operation. He was still suffering from the aftermath of IFTC.
Mr Gogarty said he had a good relationship with Mr Murphy. "I know he had his problems but I felt at the end of the day he was backing me. I may have disagreed with him on a number of things but I had fair respect for him, for a man that had come up from very humble beginnings and made himself into a multi-millionaire. The only thing I had against him was he was holding on to me for so long."