"From the dock? Oh, Jesus, I didn't know that." That was Mr James Gogarty's reaction yesterday during cross-examination by Mr Garrett Cooney SC.
Mr Cooney, for JMSE, who had been cross-examining Mr Gogarty for over an hour, had protested to the chairman, Mr Justice Flood, that: "It must be absolutely clear that Mr Gogarty has adopted the technique to avoid the point of the questions by making long rambling speeches from the dock." Mr Gogarty's response brought applause and laughter from the public section. The chairman asked for order.
Mr Cooney said: "From the witness box." Mr Gogarty said: "I am in the dock. You said it and . . ."
Mr Cooney said this was reaching proportions of . . .
Mr Gogarty said, getting up: "Putting me in the dock, oh Mother of God, put me in the dock." He then left the witness box, returning to collect his walking stick, and the chairman announced a 10-minute adjournment.
When they returned, the chairman said "no one, but no one at all, is in the dock in this tribunal" and while "moments of levity can arise, the decorum of this tribunal must be maintained . . . because we cannot have clapping at any time." Mr Cooney said he had "used the word `dock' inadvertently".
The clash ended the first hour of Mr Cooney's cross-examination of Mr Gogarty on Garda statements about allegations by Mr Gogarty that Mr Joseph Murphy jnr had made telephone threats to him in June 1994.
Mr Cooney had said three gardai had made statements that Mr Gogarty had said Det Sgt Bernard Sherry had been bribed and was corrupt and not that he had committed an error of judgment.
Mr Gogarty said he had not seen those documents and he thought "it's fair that I look at them" Mr Cooney said one was a statement by Det Garda (Kieran) McEneaney. Did the witness recollect that he was one of two gardai in his house in June 1994? Mr Gogarty did.
Mr Cooney said Det Garda McEneaney, who conducted investigations under Det Sgt Sherry, interviewed Mr Gogarty on November 22nd, 1996. The statement said Mr Gogarty had said he would prefer to make a statement about corruption among politicians to someone with a rank not lower than superintendent. Mr Gogarty said it was not his recollection.
Mr Cooney asked if he had used the word "corruption" in the interview with the detective. "Not in the sense you're implying," said Mr Gogarty. Asked if he had used the word "corruption" at all, he said he did.
Asked if he had read the statement before, Mr Gogarty said he perused it. There were a lot of statements in his solicitor's office.
Mr Cooney asked him again.
"Not in detail, honest to God." Mr Gogarty said he wanted to confirm the truth. "The truth is not in legislation. It's based on morality," he said.
Mr Cooney referred him to a line and Mr Gogarty asked: "When was this statement made?" Mr Cooney said: "Just look at the statement." Mr Gogarty asked, "Is there a date on it?" Mr John Gallagher SC, for the tribunal, said there was no date on it, it was furnished in 1998 to the tribunal.
Mr Gogarty said: "So, that's 12 months afterwards." The interview took place in November 1997, 12 months before that, he said.
The chairman gave him five minutes.
Mr Cooney referred him to the statement and asked if Det Garda McEneaney had recorded him accurately when he said Mr Gogarty wanted to see gardai not below the rank of superintendent because there was "corruption along the line". Mr Gogarty said that was not his recollection. Mr Cooney asked about the phrase "corruption along the line". Mr Gogarty said it was not corruption in the gardai, it was corruption with politicians.
Mr Cooney said Det Garda McEneaney said Mr Gogarty referred to Det Sgt Sherry and had said "somebody got to him, somebody bribed him".
Mr Gogarty said: "I don't believe I said that." But he accepted what he said. Questioned again, he said: "Maybe I did. I don't want to be telling lies."
Mr Cooney asked if he denied that. Mr Gogarty said: "I deny that. I don't believe I said it in that context at all. It was relevant to all I'd gone through."
Mr Cooney said Det Garda McEneaney said Mr Gogarty had said he wanted Det Sgt Sherry investigated.
Mr Gogarty said he may have said that. He felt the man (Sherry) had made an error of judgment earlier on.
Mr Cooney said so that part was correct. Mr Gogarty said correct. Mr Cooney said so it was not correct when he said he (Gogarty) made an accusation of bribery and corruption but was correct in wanting Det Sgt Sherry investigated.
Mr Gogarty said he wanted matters investigated but by a superior officer - he never accused the gardai of bribery or corruption.
Mr Cooney then referred him to a line in the detective's statement that Mr Gogarty considered his solicitor at the time, Mr Michael Hegarty, "falls short in trust".
Mr Gogarty said that he did not remember saying that. He could have said a lot of things.
Mr Cooney said: "Let's not play the old soldier here in the witness box." Mr Gogarty replied: "I am not playing old soldier, let's not you play old soldier with me either. . .
"You're trying to make me out a liar. If I told you I had corn flakes for my breakfast, you'd tell me I was telling lies and you would tell me it was porridge."
Mr Cooney said that in the statement Garda McEneaney said Mr Gogarty had said, "Detective Sherry must have been bought".
Did he say that? Mr Gogarty said he did not believe he said that.
Mr Cooney referred to the statement where Det Garda McEneaney had said that during the interview Mr Gogarty "kept shouting and waving with clenched fists, saying, `I'll prove all this as long as there's blood in my veins and I'll begin with Sherry, that sergeant who made little of me'."
Mr Gogarty said he did not believe he did that. "At one time you and your pals are professing that you are going to get at the truth, the whole truth like myself and then you spent half the time over the last five or six . . .
Mr Cooney said that sort of answer had to be stopped. Mr Gogarty said: "Could I finish. Please could I say what I am saying because you spent a lot of the time saying you and your crowd were going to get to the truth and you spent more than half the time in the past five or six weeks hiding behind procedures and spin-doctoring." Asked again about the statement, Mr Gogarty said that he felt that questionable conduct should be explained by Supt McElligot, who had not finished his investigation.
Mr Cooney said on February 15th, 1997, he had an interview with Supt McElligot and Det Sgt Gerard Harrington and they said he accused Det Sgt Sherry of having been bribed.
Mr Gogarty said: "I did not. Oh God, would you bring in Supt McElligot."