Ms Mary Harney had informed Mr Bertie Ahern before they went into Government that someone connected with JMSE had indicated that £60,000 was given to Mr Ray Burke for planning permission and it was delivered.
The Minister, Mr Dermot Ahern said that on the way to the meeting with Mr Murphy at Heathrow airport, on June 24th, 1997, Mr Murphy indicated to him that Mr Gabriel Grehan, JMSE director, had phoned him (Murphy) the previous evening.
Gabriel Grehan had said he had a phone call from Ms Harney to ask if he could give her Mr Murphy's telephone number.
The Minister told him he had no problem with that.
"This did remind me of some information which I had been given by Bertie Ahern, which he had received from Mary Harney at the time, that somebody connected with the company, which was Gabriel Grehan, I didn't indicate the name of the person, but that Bertie Ahern - the way I stated it to Mr Murphy was that Bertie Ahern had information from a third party, through a third party, that somebody connected with the company, not Mr Gogarty, which was in fact Mr Gabriel Grehan, that £60,000 had been given to Mr Burke in exchange for planning permission on these particular lands and that planning permission had been delivered," the Minister said. The Minister said he put this to Mr Murphy and he was taken aback. Mr Murphy asked if he could name the person. He said he did not. Mr Murphy then asked if the person was still with the company. The Minister said he had replied that as far as he was concerned he was.
Mr Brian O'Moore SC, for Mr Gogarty, cross-examining, asked if one of the questions Mr Murphy put to him before he began the meeting was whether or not he would allow Mr Grehan to give Ms Harney the phone number. The Minister said that was so.
Mr O'Moore asked whether he felt it was appropriate for the phone number to be given by Mr Grehan to Ms Harney.
The Minister said he did not make anything of it. "I was somewhat surprised. I didn't think at that time that Mary Harney would have known that I was going to speak to Mr Murphy."
Under cross-examination by Mr Garrett Cooney SC, for the Murphy Group, Mr Ahern said he could not recall a conversation, said to have taken place between him and Mr Murphy in Mr Murphy's car on the way to the hotel from Heathrow Airport.
Mr Cooney said Mr Murphy was amused that Mr Ahern had offered him confidentiality on behalf of the Taoiseach, because he knew there was a parallel investigation by the PD leader, Ms Harney, who had been in contact with his company.
It would be Mr Murphy's evidence that Mr Ahern then told him the PDs were "obliterated" in the preceding general election and that Ms Harney was not in a position to make demands of Fianna Fail. Mr Dermot Ahern said as the Government was being formed in 1997 Ms Harney had rung his home on a number of occasions leaving messages and told him she did not want him or the Taoiseach to think she was conducting anything behind their backs.