"EVERYBODY knows I am politically ambitious. But the ambition is parked at one side of my mind at the moment. I'm not going to let such things distract from my main ambition."
That main ambition for Mary O'Rourke is for Fianna Fail to be in government shortly, if not on its own, then preferably with the Progressive Democrats. As Fianna Fail deputy leader she is presumed to want to be Tanaiste, but declines to say it.
However, she concedes that Bertie Ahern's relative youthfulness means that it is not feasible for her to aspire to be Taoiseach.
Her own and her party's ambitions to hold power are clear, but what they want to use it for is less so. They appear to be planning no radical policy departure should they realise their ambitions.
. On Northern Ireland, she says, her party's differences with the Government are about management of the peace process, not policy.
. On long term unemployment, she says she would fault the Government more strongly than on any other issue. Yet the policy changes she puts forward consist of gradualist adjustment rather than dramatic transformation of this Government's approach.
. On public spending, she wants more restraint. But Partnership 2000 will be honoured, inflation will be taken account of and money will be found for increased spending in certain areas. She suggests spending will be controlled through better management of departmental budgets, rather than startling cuts.
An overall Fianna Fail majority could happen, she believes. But if not?
"Our first preference would be the Progressive Democrats. Mary Harney, Des O'Malley, Bobby Molloy, Mairin Quill, Pearse Wyse and Cathy Honan were all part of Fianna Fail at one time. It seems a natural alliance."
But surely it didn't seem so natural for much of the 1989-1992 Fianna Fail PD coalition?
"There was a good working relationship for a lot of the time, she replies, "even though it ended up in tears - certainly in tears for me because of the way Des O'Malley insisted ... but I don't want to talk about Brian."
But are there not ideological differences between Fianna Fail and the PDs - on the economy, privatisation and Northern Ireland for example - that would make another coalition with them difficult?
She agrees that in many ways Fianna Fail ministers were much more "in tune" with their coalition partners when in government with Labour than when with the PDs.
"I wouldn't deny that on some policies there would be more of a coming together with Labour, but on other policies we would be closer to the Progressive Democrats."
She says her party worked well with Labour in the area that concerned her most as Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise and Employment - long term unemployment. "That was reflected in the Labour Force Survey which showed a 25,000 drop in long term unemployment the year after we left government."
But Labour has no monopoly on caring about unemployment, she maintains.
"I'm quite sure that we could work with Mary Harney on this issue. She comes from a constituency (Dublin South West) which is hugely disadvantaged, and her daily and weekly clinics must be full of people who cannot find their way forward, so she knows the problem from first hand experience.
"I'm sure we could work with them on this."
She never had major problems dealing with the PDs on issues relating to social disadvantage. Nor would Fianna Fail and the Progressive Democrats have difficulty working together on Northern Ireland.
"Downing Street changed all that. The Downing Street Declaration and the Framework Document - we are all signed up for that. There is great consensus now."
She has no problem pointing to ideological differences in the present Government.
"Fine Gael's philosophy in my mind is for the bigger people in life, in business and in farming and other areas of life. Democratic Left have themselves firmly sited with those who are disadvantaged. Labour, I suppose, are trying to strike a middle ground. They do seem very different."
SO IN the next coalition, should Mary Harney be Tanaiste? She laughs.
"There's no point in my coming over all coy and saying that I haven't thought about this. But my main thrust is that Fianna Fail will be back in government. Beyond that I'm not going to make conjectures. That would be to my mind presumptuous."
So would she be happy to serve as a minister in her present shadow portfolio, Enterprise and Employment?
"I would like to move on. I went into Industry and Commerce as Minister of State when Albert Reynolds put me out of Government in 1992. I was with that Department in Government until 1994 and now in opposition."
Clearly moving on means moving up?
She laughs again.
"That's up to Bertie. Yes, I've flirted in my mind with all that, I wouldn't be human if I hadn't, but I'm parking that as well. Because as I said I'm not going to let my side ambition overlay the main ambition of the party, which is to get into government.
"I'd serve anywhere. It is a great honour to be asked, that's the truth, and it is up to the Taoiseach. And of course I have to get elected" (in Westmeath).
If the party were to perform badly in the election, might a question arise over the leadership?
"No, I don't think so. First of all I don't think we are going to perform badly. Bertie is doing huge constituency work. He has been around the country once and two or three weeks ago he started his second round. Bertie was a new leader, he did that, and that has meant a huge amount and I think we are going to poll well."
But if you don't?
"We'll face up to that if it happens but it's not going to. If we don't he'll still be leader. He's a young man in his mid 40s who's just chomping at the bit to get going."
One day would you like to be Taoiseach?
"It's not feasible because Bertie Ahern is the age he is with a future ahead of him, so it isn't feasible. We have a young thriving leader who is going to be with us for a long time so you can draw your own conclusions from that."
What about the presidency?
"I'm not going to be going for it. Obviously if Mary Robinson decides to run again it seems she would have the support of everyone - and my good wishes. If she doesn't I won't be a candidate.
"Obviously it would be a great honour but politics is the life for me," she says.
ON long term unemployment she talks much of the need for detailed policies, constant concern, consistent effort. It is the issue upon which she would fault the present Government the most. But radical new ideas are thin on the ground in Fianna Fail.
There is one proposal which she says will be central to the employment section of Fianna Fail's manifesto. The part time job opportunities scheme, based on a model from the Conference of Religious of Ireland, involving a three year community work programme, would be gradually expanded.
But gradual expansion of an individual scheme is hardly going to make a major dent in long term unemployment?
"It could make a significant dent because before the three years are ended, up to half have not completed the three years because they are gone into other jobs or further education."
To aid small business, Fianna Fail will give the normal PAYE allowance to owner/directors of small firms.
But on taxation she gives no hostages to fortune. Asked whether the top rate should be targeted for cuts, or the lower rate, or if the bands should be widened, she says all three courses of action should be taken.
"We talk about the top rate as if everybody on it was Aristotle Onassis. People move very swiftly into the top band, so we need a judicious mix until you get the balance right in terms of making it more attractive for a person to go into a job.
"That can only come about by the lowering of employer PRSI, the lowering of taxes at both levels in a steady way and the widening of the bands."
Fianna Fail says public spending is too high. How much and what should be cut?
She says pressure to cut public expenditure is going to grow enormously in the next five years for four reasons.
"We will be in EMU - even though a UK decision to stay out would be problematic, we will be in EMU. It will initially have job implications and financial implications.
"We will have a diminution of our structural funds. That's a certainty. We're delighted that new countries are coming in, but the cake is only one size so there will be a diminution, a slowing down.
"Thirdly, we are bound to the Maastricht criteria. And increasingly as EMU looms we will be very spancelled by that.
"Fourthly, these phenomenal growth rates won't continue. We are thankfully greatly out of kilter with the rest of Europe, we have very excellent growth rates, but they won't last.
"Those four things are going to happen, they are facts. They will impose huge constraints on public expenditure. We will be taking the opportunity to be very firm on public expenditure."
But why should we believe Fianna Fail, or a Fianna Fail PD coalition, on public expenditure, when the last time they were in power public spending grew so much?
"That government came in 1989 and there was an immediate need to attend to health. A substantial chunk of that increase went to health. More was needed for public service special pay increases that were put to one side since 1987."
She prefers to talk about the 1987-1989 government and its record on public spending. "It was a very difficult time to be in government. The country was in a perilous financial state. We rescued the country from that and it had to be done."
She admits the next government is already committed to certain levels of spending. "First of all Partnership 2000 is signed and we are in agreement with it. The implications of that in budgetary terms and wages are already laid out and they must be taken account of and they will be fulfilled.
"That's the first thing. Secondly we must take inflation into account."
So in these circumstances how can you cut spending?
"Hopefully there won't be the need for the type of retrenchment we had before. If we keep steady growth and make each minister responsible for their money, it can be done ...
"This is predicated on the assumption of growth rates of 3 or 4 per cent, maybe 5."
ON Northern Ireland she cites no policy difference with the present Government - or with the Progressive Democrats. Are her party's criticisms of the Government about their management of the peace process rather than their policy?
"Management, yes. Our complaints and concern now are that the Taoiseach seems to lapse in not maintaining that everyday, consuming concern about moving forward the Northern peace process, particularly during that long lapse when John Major was allowed to let it nearly wither.
"We would like John Bruton to be more interventionist, more hands on. We have said from time to time that we thought the Taoiseach was standing back, that he was too detached from the process, that there were lacunae where things could have happened, that he could have kept prodding the British Prime Minister.
"But on the general principle of where we see Northern Ireland and where we would see progress based on democracy and inclusive participation by all democratically elected parties, there is convergence rather than divergence between all the parties.
"Downing Street bound us all. There can be no predatory territorial approach. In the meantime, the democratic institutions must develop, we want to see Sinn Fein in the talks. We are continuing to meet people from Sinn Fein informally."
Is there a stage where that might stop if you were in government, say if IRA violence returned to pre 1994 levels?
"I recognise the constraints of government. We are in a different position in opposition. But in government I would still wish to see a channel of communications, but obviously at a different level.
"Albert Reynolds managed through a period of carnage in the North to keep a level of dialogue going through intermediaries and at official level."
The peace process, she says, is a nonsense" without Sinn Fein, although she adds it cannot be allowed into talks until there is a cessation of violence.
Her hopes centre on political changes due this year.
"There will be a general election in the UK, and a general election here: there is a chance with the slate wiped clean that there would be a chance to move forward politically."
She agrees that the esteem in which the public holds its politicians has fallen in recent years.
"It's because we don't stand up for ourselves enough...
"I feel it's a very noble profession and I am genuinely hugely honoured to be selected by people of my constituency and then hugely honoured to be in the position I am in, which Bertie Ahern gave me.
"It is a very real honour, and he is a really good companion to work with, personally and professionally. It is a great fulfilment."