It's been a long, hot summer for UCD president Hugh Brady. In his first in-depth interview since the 'poaching scandal', he says it's time for the third-level sector to face up to global realities

The change agenda at UCD

Q. In terms of the change agenda at UCD, has the challenge you faced been more daunting than anticipated?

A. No. I thought long and hard about applying for this job in the first place and I had the luxury of a nine-month period between appointment and actually beginning work. Those were key times in terms of meeting with people both within and outside the institution. So I think I went in with my eyes wide open.

Q. UCD was regarded as a sleeping giant. Was that your sense coming into UCD; that this was a college that was underperforming in relation to its potential?

A. No, I would reject that term. But the context in which the college was operating had changed dramatically and we had to adapt quickly. We had to make a standing start in terms of developing a research culture and we faced greater competition than ever for the best students and staff in a global market. There was much to be done.

Q. You have completed over a quarter of your 10-year term. What is your own assessment of what has been done?

A. I think that what has been achieved has been quite remarkable and that is a great tribute to the entire staff. We have a completely restructured the university and completely restructured the curriculum. We have launched graduate schools to focus our efforts in fourth level (postgraduate) training, completely revamped the promotions procedure within the university and we have "re-branded" UCD - for want of a better word - to achieve an international profile.

Q. What about staff morale? There is a view you have lost the middle ground of academics because of the relentless pace of change. Would you accept that morale is a real issue?

A. No. I think there is a very large middle ground of about 80 per cent, where there is a shared commitment to create a university that really can compete and win on the international stage. Obviously, people have concerns about what change will mean for them. There are concerns about the detail of implementation and, yes, concerns about the pace of change. Some actually think we should be going faster! But you couldn't have achieved all that we have achieved without that 80 per cent.

I spoke at length to all the departments in recent months. I think there was general agreement that we have achieved a lot. Yes, it has taken its toll in terms of a certain element of exhaustion, but we are now entering a much more creative phase.

We have laid the foundations where you could can say - how do you harness UCD Horizons the new modularised undergraduate course? How do you develop it exactly and get the maximum benefit from it? What are the fourth-level programmes that you can now design within the graduate schools?

We have come a long way with a lot more to do. But it all comes back to this - you have to run to stand still. This is what I think everybody realises. The reality is that we are playing in an international game.

Q. Can we just go back on the morale question? So many people say something has changed in terms of the culture of UCD. Some of those working in the arts/humanities area feel their work has been downgraded.

A. There is a bedding-down process underway where you have people with new colleagues both on the academic and administrative sides.

On the question of the balance between arts and sciences, we are going for an approach of balanced excellence. In fact, if you look at the changes in restructuring they were much more radical in the science-based areas than they were in the departments in arts and humanities.

If you look at our major research institutes, yes we have the Conway Institute of Biomedical Research but equally we have the Geary Institute in the Social Sciences and the Humanities Institute of Ireland.

This is not just a UCD question. Nationally there is concern about balance between arts and sciences. I have noticed that the Minister for Education is being very vocal in her support of humanities and social sciences in all recent statements. So I think there is an awareness that the balance has to be kept.

The poaching row

Q. Over the summer you stood accused of poaching staff from other universities, something which attracted unfavourable comment from several Ministers and some other university presidents. Do you have any regrets about the whole episode?

A. No. We have now signed an agreement or protocol on the recruitment of staff which we all agree is an appropriate way to move forward. We will undoubtedly differ in terms of details of implementation going forward but we are genuinely committed to a shared set of objectives. I think we all realise we are playing a global game and we just cannot afford to get it wrong. So if things get passionate it is because we absolutely appreciate the intensity of the competition and that's the international competition.

Q. Would you accept the fundamental point made by Mary Hanafin that the sector here was just too small to withstand poaching of staff, that one university should work to complement and enhance what another is doing instead of poaching staff?

A. I am not going to comment on her particular statement. All I will say is that the protocol is a fair and balanced agreement and I am very happy with it.

Q. How would you characterise that relationship and indeed your relationship with the other universities?

A. I would say the bonds between the seven universities are tighter than ever before. I go back to our pre-Budget submission last year which called on the Government to transform third level and create a dynamic fourth-level (postgrad) sector. We are totally committed as a group to that and we were thrilled that the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Education backed it so forcefully. We are absolutely confident that we can deliver it.

In relation to the debate over the summer, I think we are all hugely encouraged by the great level of public interest in higher education and in the development of the sector.

Q. But has UCD been damaged by the row? Has some goodwill been lost with the likes of Mary Hanafin and Minister for Finance Brian Cowen?

A. Not at all. I see them regularly and we have a very open relationship and again they backed us in the Budget. UCD damaged? I don't think so.

Q. You have been the subject of a great deal of criticism both internally and externally. Do you get frustrated by this?

A. If you are driving any change agenda you have to expect criticism and that's not something that particularly upsets me.

Working with my colleagues in the Irish Universities' Association (representing the seven university presidents) we have differed at times in terms of details of implementation but again I would say nobody should underestimate the shared commitment to delivering on what is a sectoral objective of establishing Ireland as a truly excellent, internationally competitive education sector.

I think we are all very proud of the pre-Budget submission that we made last year. A lot of thought went into that and our shared commitment and enthusiasm has not diminished.

League tables

Q. There is a view that you put too much store on UCD's status in the various university league tables and that these tables don't always reflect the reality of how a college is performing.

A. We are not afraid to be measured, but we are not obsessed with the rankings. There are many different types of rankings. Most of them actually discriminate against a university like UCD which has a very strong base in the arts and human sciences because most rankings capture success in the technology-based disciplines. So virtually all of the rankings out there don't tell the full story in terms of UCD because they don't capture our history, heritage and expertise in those particular areas.

On rankings, I think you shouldn't be afraid of them, but at the same time many of them can provide useful indicators. My goal is to put UCD firmly into the top 30 universities in Europe. That is a realistic goal and we are working to achieve it.

The brain drain

Q. You have raised concerns about the competition the universities are facing for the best and the brightest Leaving Cert students. How real is this threat?

A. All you have to do is talk to parents and talk to school principals. They will give you individual cases of the really bright students going off to Cambridge, Edinburgh.

Look at the various education shows - like The Irish Times' Higher Options - and look at the number of UK universities represented and look at their marketing spend. They don't invest in that kind of campaign unless they feel that they are going to be actually able to deliver the best Irish students to their universities.

The reality is that with the Celtic Tiger there is an increased level of ambition among school leavers. I was talking to a guy last week who was leaving Dublin I think at 6.10pm to be in Old Trafford for a 7.30pm game. You can do the same going to Manchester University. It's almost as easy for somebody from Ardee to get to Manchester as it is to get to an Irish college.