The Taoiseach told the Dáil yesterday that he would not have appointed Mr Ray Burke to the Cabinet in 1997 if he knew then what he knows now.
"It is five years later, and my decision at the time was a bona fide one based on Mr Burke's undisputed political abilities, his categorical assurance that he had done nothing wrong, and a number of inquiries," Mr Ahern added.
The Taoiseach was responding to the Fine Gael leader, Mr Enda Kenny, on the Order of Business. Earlier, during heated and noisy exchanges, he rejected Opposition demands that a question-and-answer session form part of the Flood report debate which began yesterday and concludes today.
Mr Ahern insisted that the precedent set by the Dáil in the debates on judicial tribunals did not allow for such such a procedure. "As no individual Minister is responsible for the establishment of tribunals - the Houses of the Oireachtas is - no question-and-answer session has ever taken place." Mr Ahern said the "legal issue" involved was extremely important. "Many people named in this report are now the subject of criminal investigation. In view of the comment of Mr Justice Haugh and other justices, it is essential nothing is said which might prejudice a fair trial." However, he said that he would answer any questions raised during the debate when he speaks at its conclusion today.
In that speech, he added, he intended outlining the investigation carried out relating to the numerous allegations concerning the payment of money relating to planning matters. "I was misled, as was the House, by Mr Burke. Since the tribunal's interim report was published, I have made my position clear. I have condemned the corrupt activities themselves, expressed my sense of betrayal."
The Government had comfortable majorities in a series of votes on the Order of Business, as Mr Ahern, flanked by the Tánaiste, Ms Harney, and members of the Cabinet, came under sustained pressure to answer questions today.
Mr John Deasy (FG, Waterford) was ordered from the House when he persisted in questioning the Taoiseach. Later, in a statement, he said the "Taoiseach's arrogance in refusing to answer questions, has lowered politics and the Dáil chamber to an extent I never thought possible."
Mr Ahern said that one's judgement at any given time was formed on the basis of what one believed what was true at the time and the evidence available. He added that in the short time Mr Burke was Minister he had made his mark in political terms.
"The fact that I called Mr Burke and honourable man underlines that I genuinely believed the assurances he gave me when I questioned him." Mr Ahern added that there are precedents for others taking colleagues at their word. When the then Fine Gael minister, Mr Michael Lowry, resigned from the Rainbow Cabinet, Mr Enda Kenny had expressed regret at his departure, he said. On the same occasion, the then Labour leader, Mr Dick Spring, said he had no difficulty in accepting Mr Lowry's assertion of integrity.
Pressed further by Mr Kenny, the Taoiseach said no member of the House had questioned Mr Burke's suitability for office on the night the Cabinet was appointed in 1997. When Mr Pat Rabbitte (Labour, Dublin South West) said this was because of a long-standing convention, Mr Ahern said there were "two famous occasions" when appointments to office were questioned.
Mr Ahern said that passport files, relating to Mr Burke, had been seen by the then Minister for Justice, Ms Nora Owen, in 1994. Those files were now the subject of investigation by the Moriarty Tribunal. "I did not know anything of Brennan & McGowan.
I do not have any knowledge of those. I did not talk to Mr (James) Gogarty. I did make some efforts with Bovale and JMSE. I was asked by eminent journalists in the 1997 election campaign about Ray Burke. I made it absolutely clear that I knew he received money.
"But he had said - and it was not illegal for him to get that money - that he had done nothing wrong. I took the man's word at the time. I did not have the powers of a major five-year investigation. If I had all the information it has taken five years to uncover, I would not have appointed him."
Leading the Opposition demands for a question-and-answer session earlier, Mr Kenny said Mr Ahern was absolutely central to the entire Flood report. There were questions about his judgement and leadership, "the acid test of which was the appointment of Mr Ray Burke as minister for foreign affairs. He proposed a two-hour question-and-answer session at the end of the debate to allow Mr Ahern and Ms Harney answer questions.
"An estimated 100,000 people have read this report. They want answers, and I need to know from the Taoiseach and Tánaiste will they answer their questions."
The Labour deputy leader, Mr Brendan Howlin, said people were watching and would reconsider the relevance of the House if deputies could not at least debate the issues involved and get meaningful answers from the Government.
"We will make ourselves irrelevant." The Green Party leader, Mr Trevor Sargent, said what was required was no more than the accountability which the Taoiseach talked about so often, being show to actually work. "That is what we are asking for, no more and no less, the facility to have questions answered."
Speaking later last night, the Minister for the Environment, Mr Cullen, said Mr Justice Flood has not made any findings in his interim tribunal report that the rezoning of land was procured corruptly. Payments made to former Minister, Mr Ray Burke, were corrupt and Mr Burke understood that the payments were in connection with the rezoning of lands, but the lands in question were not rezoned, Mr Cullen said.
The Minister rejected suggestions that land use zoning functions should be made or at least overseen by a national zoning committee, possibly chaired by a High Court judge and staffed by planners. He said the central tenet in those suggestions was that zoning was not appropriate to local authorities or councillors. However, the Murphy lands were not rezoned and the provisions of the planning act would have contributed to this, because rezoning was carried out in public, following public consultation.
