The Political Interview, every Tuesday, focuses on the policies and ideas of leading political personalities in the run up to the general election later this year. The politicians have the opportunity to explain in detail what they and their parties have to offer voters considering the choice of the next government. Accompanying each interview is an assessment of their performance by Denis Coghlan, Chief Political Correspondent.
By DENIS COGHLAN
Chief Political Correspondent
IT IS a curious thing, given John O'Donoghue's unstinting support for the forces of law and order, that it is a collision with the Garda Commissioner over "zero crime" that has rescued him from political trouble.
A week ago, John O'Donoghue was being broiled by his party leader, Bertie Ahern, for dragging Fianna Fail into an unwanted squall over abortion. Yesterday, Mr Ahern remarked at a press conference that he hoped John O'Donoghue would be Minister for Justice within a few months. That's politics for you.
Fianna Fail claims its man is winning the argument with Commissioner Pat Byrne over crime policy.
"I was a little taken aback (at (Mr Byrne's comments) but I welcome his intervention," he says. "I do not agree with him, but I welcome what he has to say. Crime is an issue of fundamental importance to society and people with such a direct input are entitled to respond".
Having travelled the length and breadth of the country as Fianna Fail's justice spokesman over the last two years, he finds people "tortured and plagued by offences such as car thefts, burglaries, robberies, muggings and larcenies".
An anxious public wants political leadership and "I am giving that to them", he says.
The unlikely joust between Fianna Fail's justice spokesman and the Commissioner had its roots in last Thursday's launch of the party's election policy document on crime.
Flanked by his party leader, John O'Donoghue declared war on crime, spelling out his philosophy of "zero tolerance".
The next day in Cork, Examiner journalist Eamonn Timmons met the Commissioner at the Garda Social Club on Penrose Quay. Mr Byrne's critical response to the Fianna Fail package was spontaneous. If the zero tolerance concept meant chasing every offence, "beggars and buskers and people who don't pay their fare on the bus" would end up in court, he said.
As the debate rumbled on yesterday, Mr O'Donoghue again challenged Mr Byrne "to say what is a tolerable level of crime and to identify for me what categories of crime are acceptable.
"Pat Byrne said that thousands would end up in jail. No, that is not true. Nor does my crime package require extra legislation. I'm saying, enforce the law as it stands. I'm asking Garda management to say if it is resources they lack; if so, let's talk to the Government. But, if it is a management attitude that's the problem, let's discuss it and let's hope a debate clears it up."
WHILE insisting he has no wish to become "embroiled in a public row with the Commissioner", he says, "I will defend my policy. He criticised it and I am entitled to defend it; and people want action. I regard it as a productive debate. I know Pat Byrne personally, but this is not about Pat Byrne or John O'Donoghue - it is about controlling crime in this country".
In spite of his stance on another abortion referendum, John O'Donoghue does not regard himself as a conservative. Or a liberal, for that matter. He is a "pragmatist", a Kerry pragmatist.
Many in his own party say it was this pragmatism, and, in spite of his protestations, his strong conservatism, that drove him to declare on radio that perhaps the circumstances surrounding a new abortion referendum should be examined.
His public comment, in the wake of a recent report that a woman had procured a termination of pregnancy in Dublin two years ago, demonstrated a chink in the widespread political armoury against another abortion poll, but showed that he is keenly aware of his own constituency.
After all, John O'Donoghue was "born into politics". His father, Daniel, and mother, Mary, were Fianna Fail county councillors. His mother, who was pregnant with her seventh child when her husband died suddenly of a heart attack, held the post for 21 years, during which time she became chairwoman of Kerry County Council.
TO ILLUSTRATE his own political pedigree, he likes to tell a story, garnished with the verbal lavishness that characterises his Dail contributions. His three children can claim, he says, that their father, their paternal grandparents, their great grand uncle, and their uncle, as well as their maternal grandfather, great grandfather, uncle, granduncle and great granduncle were all councillors.
"Brian Cowen once asked me are you interested in politics yourself? As Wordsworth said, it is felt along the blood and it is felt along the heart," he says.
Having been born into politics, he then opted to marry into politics. His wife, Kate Ann Murphy, is the daughter of a Labour TD, Michael Pat Murphy from west Cork. Like her husband, she was brought up in a political habitat.
A happy marriage of Fianna Fail and Labour, then?
"I have a happy alliance at home, but there is the political question too. Very unhappy differences arose between the members of the then Fianna Fail Cabinet and certain members in the higher echelons of the Labour party," he says.
So, he personally favours a coalition pact with the Progressive Democrats because he is quite satisfied that such a Government would provide two new leaders, a fresh start and "a new beginning".
"Let me stress, in this context, that Fianna Fail's identity, its social conscience and its views in relation to the needs of the underprivileged in Irish society will not be submerged by any party," he says.
There would have to be "an understanding" with any future ally, in advance, that the ethos of his party could not be undermined.
In the last Fianna Fail Progressive Democrats coalition, between 1989 and 1992, there were "too many old scores to settle and, inexorably, it led to the demise of the government".
On the next occasion they will not start out from this hostile base and, presumably, would have fewer banana skins on which to skate.
Now, hoping that his party stands on the brink of re election to government, John O'Donoghue seems indelibly marked to become a minister in the next administration.
"There are always hurdles to be jumped in politics. First, you've got to be selected; then you've got to be elected; then your party must get into government and then you must be selected all over again (for Cabinet). Which of these is Becher's Brook I don't know but I have fallen at one or other in the past," he says.
All that aside, he would have a "great interest" in becoming minister for justice. He has been spokesman on justice for two years and he would like to tackle it because "from every angle, it is in need of massive reform . . it is in a sorry state".
To this end, he has produced a lengthy policy document which will be a pillar of the Fianna Fail manifesto in the forthcoming general election.It covers the whole criminal justice system with a heavy emphasis on the worsening drugs crisis.
He brushes aside criticisms that it carries no costings, insisting that, as Bertie Ahern told the press conference launch, it will be both affordable and implemented.
Does he favour "breaking up" the Department of Justice?
"THERE is very definitely a strong argument for a courts commission because what has happened to date is not working. A prison authority is also desirable. But it is still of importance, not least from the point of view of democratic accountability, that the Minister for Justice be answerable to the Dail for the prison and courts system in this country."
The justice system must be based on the premise that every citizen has the right to feel secure "in his or her person", he believes. In the hierarchy of obligations of any government to its people, the liability to provide that protection is the superior obligation.
If the stakes that as the fundamental philosophy, everything else is constructed around that. You cannot have a situation in a criminal justice system in any country where an individual feels that if he or she commits a serious offence, at best it will go unpunished and at worst, it will be partially punished," he says.
Crime will be a "big" issue in the general election because of the escalation in violent crime.
Each year, some 45,000 crimes are committed, with violence, against property. More than 100,000 indictable crimes are committed annually, compared to 72,000 in the early 1980s.
"The number of attacks on people, or on property with violence, has increased dramatically since 1980. It is important to stress that offences against the person, per se, number about 1,500. But when you talk about offences against property, with violence on persons, you are talking about the real figures," he says.
He blames the growing drugs problem and "an increase in individualism", for the increase in violent crime.
This is "buttressed" by the number of dysfunctional families that arise more from the drugs culture than anything else.
His party is to propose a new offence, possession of illegal drugs for monetary gain. This would allow a mandatory sentence of 10 years' imprisonment for anyone found guilty of possession of drugs to the value of £10,000 or more. It is tough - but, John O'Donoghue says, it must be done if many of the youth of Ireland are to be saved from destruction.
Fianna Fail, he predicts, will suspend a pub's licence for three months if drugs are sold on the premises. If this happens on more than three occasions in five years, the licence will be forfeited for good, unless the owner establishes everything possible had been done to prevent the sale of drugs on the premises.
"We seem to have a Dickensian approach to resolving the drugs problem if one looks at it from a penal perspective. One could legitimately ask why do we have a Drugs Free Unit in Mountjoy. The reason why we have a Drugs Free Unit is because we are admitting that, in a State institution, we are unable to control the supply of drugs," he adds.
If the Government cannot control the supply of drugs in its prisons, ordinary citizens can well ask how can they control it on the streets. The attitude has to change.
ADDICTS must be given "the choice" by the courts to "take the prison route or the treatment route, but you are not going to take the route which you have been taking ... you cannot continue as you are on the streets".
A new drugs treatment unit would be purpose built and based in Dublin and, while there are thousands of addicts in the city, it would cater for the "certain number who are causing mayhem and have to be taken off the streets.
"The question of the private sector building prisons, or detention centres, on a lease back arrangement is something that has to be very seriously examined. The private sector would provide the capital and it would be leased to the State. There are various mechanisms for doing this," he says.
The State, however, would continue to run the prisons.
In government, Fianna Fail would also construct a separate new remand centre at Wheatfield and proceed with the building of Castlerea and a women's prison at Mountjoy.
"In as much as we have looked at the closure of Victorian mental hospitals in the State, we will also clearly have to look at the question of the ultimate closure of Mountjoy and decide how we are going to replace it," he says.
Sentencing policy and the imposition of punishment must also be addressed.
The injustice committed against the Birmingham Six or the Guildford Four makes one baulk at the concept of "life should be life" but the system of temporary release must be "severely curtailed".
About 4,000 prisoners are being released early from prisons in the State each year, many on the basis that there is not enough room to house them. Irrespective of which parties are in government after the next election, there will be no end to temporary release and no decrease in serious crime unless there is a sufficiency of prison spaces "to punish people for the crimes they commit".
The prison system is in chaos "and this chaos is giving succour to criminals and potential criminals". It is "impossible" within the current system to rehabilitate offenders, though 60 per cent of prisoners are supposed to receive educational instruction.
"But how could you educate anybody or how could you even hope to reintegrate anyone into society in a cesspool like Mountjoy?" he asks incredulously.
Meanwhile, John O'Donoghue has a "fundamental theory" that one teaches an individual to take and never give, he will eventually do whatever is necessary to procure what he wants.
"People have to be made aware of the fact that they are responsible for their actions. There has never been a man or woman born under the natural law who did not know right from wrong unless there was something basically unstable about the individual's mind," he said.
Resisting the tag of "hardliner", he says that his is not a "lock 'em up and throw away the key" doctrine. Though his document does not dwell on the roots of crime, he says it must tackle poverty and deprivation through education and jobs.
While Government policies exist on other areas of life, and there are "green papers, whitepapers and yellow papers on all of these things", there is no vision about the issue that fundamentally affect people's liberty and property.
One of the first priorities for Fianna Fail in government would be the "organisation" of the Garda. This would involve revamping and extending Garda Drug Units and expanding the Emergency Response Unit, as well as re establishing a "specialist squad" to investigate "complicated murders".
A "specialist organised crime unit" would be established by Fianna Fail, while Garda numbers on the streets would rise from 10,800 to 12,000.
The Garda commissioner should become the accounting officer of the force and legislation should be introduced to set out the boundaries of the commissioner's powers.
"The paternal and interventionist role which the Department of Justice traditionally exercises over the Garda Siochana should be ended and greater operational control for day to day functioning should be a matter for the Garda," he says.
It may surprise observers, but in John O'Donoghue's eyes Fianna Fail is left of centre on the political spectrum. That's how he sees himself, too.
"We are the party of the small farmers' dole. We are the party of the part time fisherman, the share fisherman . . . Fianna Fail has been described as the grandest coalition of all. Without any doubt in the wide earthly world it has implemented over the years more than any other party what might be called a socialist agenda," he says.
HE QUOTES a man who was once asked what the difference was between Fine Gael and Fianna Fail; "them that know don't need to ask and them that ask don't need to know. Obviously we have a separate and distinct policy when it comes to matters such as the North of Ireland where we could legitimately claim to be the largest constitutional nationalist/republican party in this country. We have been steadfast in relation to that since our foundation," he says.
Like others in his party, he is stung by opponents' taunts that a Fianna Fail/Progressive Democrats alliance would represent rampant capitalism.
"Fianna Fail is a quite separate entity from the Progressive Democrats, as anyone who has ever followed the history of the party should know. We will ensure in government that our philosophy and that our views are implemented in so far as we possibly can. We are not going to go along with any right wing draconian views from any sector," he says.
His admiration for Bertie Ahern appears boundless. "I always wanted Bertie Ahern to be the leader of Fianna Fail since the first day I saw him."
Meanwhile, he has lost few votes over his attitude to crime or abortion, but he has now taken a vow of silence on the latter.