Sinn Féin’s Mary Lou McDonald appeared on RTÉ Radio 1’s Morning Ireland programme on Monday in the wake of the resignation of the party’s health spokesman, Brian Stanley TD. Below is a transcript of her interview with presenter Mary Wilson.
Mary Wilson: Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald, you’re welcome to the programme
Mary Lou McDonald: Thank you Mary, good morning.
MW: I imagine it’s not a good morning for you and for the party, you’re reeling from a series of controversies and we’ll work our way through them. But let’s start with this resignation of Brian Stanley - one of your most senior frontbenchers, chair of the Public Accounts Committee, TD for Laois-Offaly. You’ve referred matters in relation to a complaint made to the party about Brian Stanley to An Garda Síochána. What is the allegation or complaint made in relation to Brian Stanley?
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MMcD: Well Mary, I’m not in a position to comment on that. What I can tell you is that, as per the party rules, a complaint made against Deputy Stanley was inquired into. The inquiries were carried out August through September, completed on October 4th. An initial complaint had been made and it was entirely proper for the party to inquire into it.
Had the initial complaint, Mary, been of a criminal nature, it would have gone straight to An Garda Síochána, be very clear about that.
In any event, it was not. The inquiry happened. In the course of the inquiries, a counter allegation was also made. The inquiry initial process concluded. It was written up, it was sent to both parties for comment, for accuracy and so on as per good procedure. Both parties were to come back, actually this morning on that matter.
The report also went to the head of our disciplinary committee, and I should say the Sinn Féin disciplinary process is supervised by a barrister, by a legal professional. It’s at arm’s length from the party itself.
Once that was received by the head of the disciplinary committee, they sought further legal advice. Brian Stanley resigned, and the matters were then handed to the party chair, and for an abundance of caution, we have referred these matters to the gardaí.
I want to be clear here, I am not in a position to say whether or not the complaint or the counter allegation meet the standard for criminal investigation. That’s not my job. But I am far happier that the complaint and the counter-allegation are now in the hands of the gardaí and they can do what they deem to be appropriate.
MW: There is a lot to unpick, let’s work our way back and then we’ll come forward again. Just tell me when the complaint was made exactly, and the manner in which the complaint was made - was it an in-person complaint, was it by letter? How was it made to you and to whom?
MMcD: The statement from the complainant was received on August 2nd, and the process kicked off from there. Deputy Stanley was made aware of matters on August 3rd. Deputy Stanley rejected the complaint.
MW: Just there, if you don’t mind me interrupting you just for clarity, when were you made aware?
MMcD: I was made aware in early August that there was a complaint made.
MW: So August 2nd; a complaint is received. August 3rd; Brian Stanley is made aware. Do you have the date you were made aware?
MMcD: I’m made aware that there is a complaint at that stage, but as per the rules and procedure, I’m not made aware of what the complaint is, the nature of the complaint. It’s very important for the fair processing and conduct of an inquiry like this that there is no suggestion even of interference or influence at all. So for that reason, as I said earlier, our processes are at arm’s length, and the disciplinary process is overseen by a professional barrister.
MW: So, what were you told?
MMcD: I was told that there was a complaint made in relation to Brian Stanley. That’s it. And that it would be processed in accordance with the party…
MW: At that point, were there any conversations with Brian Stanley, between you specifically and Brian Stanley?
MMcD: I have at no stage discussed the complaint with Brian Stanley. He had one brief exchange with me in which he said that a complaint had been made. I informed him that I was aware of that and that the process would have to take its course. But that was it. It is extremely important and let me say this, Mary, we have a very robust and fair procedure for dealing with these matters…
MW: And I would like to talk through that procedure…
MMcD: I’m happy to do that but I have to make this overall point - I make no apology to anybody for the fair, impartial observance of the rules and standards of the party, and that applies to all of us, whether you’re an ordinary member of the party or whether you’re the chairman of the PAC [Public Accounts Committee].
MW: We will get into those as well. Is the person who made this complaint known to you? I think the person has been described as a long-standing member of the party.
MMcD: The person has been a long-standing member of the party. They are not personally known to me, no.
MW: Is this person within the Dublin element of the party, within the Laois-Offaly constituency, can you tell me?
MMcD: No I can’t Mary, I’m not going to comment on that for this simple reason. The process was under way. I am very conscious, as I’ve said to you repeatedly in all of these processes, that firstly, when a complaint is made, that it’s taken seriously, that it’s processed appropriately, that everybody’s rights are respected and protected. And unfortunately, in this case, we find ourselves in a position where Deputy Stanley has walked away from the process.
We’ve a serious complaint, a counter-allegation. The gardaí now have it, and I want them to get on and to conclude whether or not there will be an investigation required.
MW: So a complaint is received on August 2nd, a disciplinary panel or inquiry panel is put together. Tell me about that panel and who is on that panel.
MMcD: That panel is, the process, as I say, is headed up by a barrister, and the panel consists of two people who are long-standing party members. That’s standard procedure. The process itself falls on the watch of the party chair.
MW: And is the barrister a member of the party?
MMcD: The barrister is, yes, a member of the party.
MW: And two, you say, senior party members. Are they elected representatives - north and south?
MMcD: No, they are not.
MW: They’re senior party officials.
MMcD: Well they’re not officials. They’re members of the party.
MW: Members of the party. And from…north of Ireland, south of Ireland?
MMcD: In this case, one was from the north, one was from the south, but it can be, they are senior, competent party members. And when a panel is established, geography isn’t an issue, Mary. They can come from any part of the party.
MW: Are both parties, what we will call the complainant in this case and Brian Stanley, are they both called before this panel?
MMcD: Well, what happens is written submissions, written documentation, the nature of the complaint is the first procedure of it, and then yes, the panel meet the person making the complaint and the person responding. That is correct, yes.
MW: When did they conclude and issue a preliminary finding?
MMcD: Just to say when the panel meet the complainant or the person who is responding, obviously they are free to have with them whomever they wish. In Brian Stanley’s case, he had a solicitor and a barrister, as was his right. That process that I’ve described to you concluded on October 4th, the preliminary inquiry findings were written up and drafts of that were circulated to both parties as per procedures.
MW: Were they circulated to you as well?
MMcD: No, absolutely not. I’ve said to you now repeatedly…this whole process is at arm’s length from the party. It would be utterly inappropriate for me to have access to that documentation. My first briefing, my first correct and full briefing, I should say, was on the back of Brian Stanley resigning on Saturday night. So I was briefed on matters on Saturday night by the party chair.
MW: In that October 4th preliminary finding from this panel. Did they make recommendations that matters should be sent to An Garda Síochána?
MMcD: Well I am not going to comment on, there were no, to put it directly to you, there were no final recommendations because, well, it wasn’t at that stage.
MW: Was it a recommendation that matters be referred to An Garda Síochána?
MMcD: No, it was not. There was no recommendations at all, because it was a preliminary report of the facts, the undisputed facts, and then the disputed facts, the nature of the complaint, the nature of the counter allegation.
MW: What can you tell us about the finding now?
MMcD: Well, I can’t comment on findings at all because the process was cut short when Brian Stanley resigned.
MW: The Irish Times reports this morning that they had reached a preliminary conclusion of gross misconduct against Brian Stanley before he resigned from the party on Saturday night.
MMcD: Let me just repeat that I will not be commenting in that regard. And there were, in fact, no final findings because the process was suspended because Deputy Stanley resigned.
MW: Moving on, when and in what circumstances was a decision made to refer matters to An Garda Síochána?
MMcD: So the report and the final report, or the preliminary report was circulated to both parties, as I have said to you, and also to the head of the disciplinary committee. Legal advice is sought. At that point, Brian Stanley had resigned. Matters are handed to the party chair. I am briefed then on these matters, and at that point the referral is made to An Garda Síochána.
MW: Brian Stanley resigned on Saturday night, two days ago.
MMcD: He did, yes. The referral was made on Sunday, early afternoon.
MW: Was that your decision?
MMcD: Yes, I was party to that decision, and I stand over it. I stand over two things, Mary. Firstly, although I would prefer to be on your programme, as you can well imagine, talking to you about housing, health and childcare and all of the things that matter to society. However, as the leader of Sinn Féin, when complaints are made, when there is a question of behaviour or the standards within the party, I make no apology to anybody for insisting that the rules are applied fairly, without fear, without favour.
And secondly, the referral to An Garda Síochána was made in an abundance of caution because I was not happy, nor would I be happy with the party left with a serious complaint and a serious counter allegation…and is a process left in suspension. I want matters concluded…
MW: It is only made coming up now into three months since the original complaint was made on August 2nd, and it’s only made after Brian Stanley’s resignation on Saturday night, after you sit down and before you face the media, a complaint is decided to be sent to An Garda Síochána.
MMcD: Well, Mary, as I have gone through in some detail with you, the chronology of events, and I’ve said to you we receive the initial complaint, had the initial complaint been of a criminal nature, that would have gone straight to the gardaí. Sinn Féin wouldn’t have been near it.
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The complaint is made, the inquiry process unfolds, as I’ve described for you, through September into October. More information, it comes and is written up in the preliminary report, including a serious counter allegation. As that unfolds, more advice is sought. As it happens, Deputy Stanley walked away. That was of his doing, not mine.
MW: Has the complainant gone to An Garda Síochána?
MMcD: The complainant has not, to my knowledge, but that is absolutely their prerogative. But to my knowledge, no. That’s a matter for themselves.
MW: I’m a bit confused about Sinn Féin deciding to go to An Garda Síochána on Sunday afternoon on a complaint, the content of which we don’t know, when it wasn’t seen as something of a criminal nature, you say when the inquiry started back last August, but is suddenly a matter that you want to go to An Garda Síochána when you’re told about it and about the resignation of Brian Stanley two days ago.
MMcD: Well, there’s nothing sudden in any of this, Mary. I’ve described to you a process that went through September into October. I’ve said to you but let me clarify again. The initial complaint was not a criminal matter. If it had been, it would have gone to the gardaí at that stage.
As the inquiries were made, and into September and concluding and written up at the beginning of October, more matters were introduced. A counter allegation, which is a serious matter, was also introduced into the fray. The preliminary report is then circulated.
MW: I understand that. I’m sorry to cut across you here, but why was it for you and Sinn Féin to go to An Garda Síochána and not this person who brought the complaint to you?
MMcD: Both parties, either party, are free to go to the gardaí if they wish. I can only account for my decisions.
MW: So why did Sinn Féin do that?
MMcD: For this reason - because we are left as a political party in a situation with a complaint and a counter-allegation, both of which in my view, are serious, a process that has been cut short by Deputy Stanley walking away and I want matters concluded.
MW: You could go into Leinster House tomorrow and make a full statement of all the detail. It is still somewhat confusing as to why the party went to An Garda Síochána on Sunday afternoon before you went public with your statement and following Brian Stanley’s resignation.
MMcD: Well, Mary, I don’t know what’s confusing about this at all.
MW: What’s confusing about it is why the party is going to An Garda Síochána and what did you bring to An Garda Síochána?
MMcD: The reason the party has referred this matter to An Garda Síochána as I’ve said to you now repeatedly, is for an abundance of caution. We have gone through meticulously, fairly, respecting everybody’s rights, all of the matters that have come to our attention. And I tell you, Mary, the idea that I would go into the Dáil or anywhere else and rehearse all of these matters would be most, most unfair to everybody concerned, and I have no intention of doing this.
MW: But you said you had legal advice every step of the way. One of the council or inquiry members is a barrister. You’ve had legal advice right along the way. Surely, at any point in that process, when it became clear that you believed you should go to An Garda Síochána, you should have pulled down the shutters and said, ‘we cannot go on with this. This is a matter now for investigation by the gardaí’.
That could have happened in August, it could have happened in September, but no, it happened yesterday.
MMcD: Mary, the process that was overseen and that protected everybody’s rights was concluded, the preliminary, on October 4th.
MW: A political party isn’t in a position, if there is a matter of concern, or any matter of any criminal nature, your job surely as a political party is to move it, and we’ll move on to Northern Ireland in a minute and the issues there, but your first priority is surely to go to the policing authorities, in this case, the gardaí and you didn’t do that. Your party didn’t do that, the inquiry didn’t do that.
MMcD: The party have made a referral to An Garda Síochána. I was briefed on these matters, as was appropriate, on Saturday night. An independent inquiry process in any organisation has to be just that; independent. It has to be rigorous. It has to get to the facts. It has to protect everybody’s rights. That’s what happens within Sinn Féin.
MW: You’re the party leader. The buck stops with you. Here, you are the one trying to explain and defend this, this morning, and yet you didn’t know what was going on. Surely that begs the question, are you in charge of this party at all?
MMcD: I am very much in charge of this party, and as the person with whom the buck does stop, I am absolutely insistent that rules and procedures are applied rigorously.
MW: Did the rules and procedures fail you then?
MMcD: Far from it, that they are followed rigorously and impartially and then the book does stop with me … When matters were brought to my attention and when I was fully briefed on Saturday night, I absolutely stand over the decision to refer matters for an abundance of caution onward to An Garda Síochána.
Can I suggest to you, Mary, had I not done that, you would very fairly in this interview this morning, put that question to me. You would ask me, ‘why not’, and that would be a fair question.
MW: And aren’t there questions around rules and procedures in Northern Ireland, surrounding Michael McMonagle and the references from the two Sinn Féin press officers and rules and procedures being followed there, and they failed you.
MMcD: Yes, and the two individuals who acted unilaterally and it was a gross misconduct, no longer work for us. They are no longer in the party. They faced the full consequences of their actions. We’re a large organisation, like any organisation, you are managing, sometimes things you don’t see coming. You’re managing human behaviour, failures, mistakes.
MW: Mary Lou McDonald, you are not a multinational you know and if we stay with the McMonagle affair. The email communication from the British Heart Foundation to your HR department, which you know, as you would point out, is the central clearing house if you like for all issues around employment and employees. That communication happened in August 2023. What did the HR department do with that information?
MMcD: Yes, it wasn’t passed on as it should have been, and that was a grave omission.
MW: Another failure.
MMcD: Mary, I’ve addressed all of these things. I’m not pretending for a second that mistakes weren’t made. They clearly were. Furthermore, I have done something about it. I have now instigated an overhaul of all of our procedures to tighten everything up.
MMcD: Were you late to the provision of knowledge to you around what was happening here, that now you know rules and procedures are being set up. Rules and procedures that you said, have been in place for the protection of the party and the party members, and making sure that everything … that i’s are dotted and t’s are crossed, but they failed in Northern Ireland. It would now appear that there are serious questions around what has been happening here in relation to this complaint from Brian Stanley and furthermore, you’ve had the resignation of Patricia Ryan.
There’s also a question, is there not, now around a text message in Northern Ireland? What can you tell us about that?
MMcD: In each of those individual cases, what you are seeing is where mistakes were made, where there was gross misconduct, where behaviour fell beneath standards, you are seeing the rules applied. That’s what you’re seeing, up to and including, you mentioned Patricia [Ryan], up to and including the fact election selection conventions are open conventions, and sometimes they’re contested.
I appreciate this is probably an unusual thing in Irish public or political life, that actually rules exist and rules are applied, and then the consequences and fallout of those rules becomes manifest. But that’s what you’re seeing here. And I stand over the fact that our rules and procedures apply to everybody and at times you will then have to deal with the fallout from that, but that’s life. That’s politics and that’s how it is.
MW: The resignation of a member, I think over, is it a party official over allegations of inappropriate text messages to a 17-year-old. That party member has now resigned, matters referred to the PSNI, but what can you tell us about that?
MMcD: What I can tell you is that the matter came to our attention, and again, the procedures were applied, the PSNI was informed, social services were informed, everything was done by the book. There was no charge, there was no investigation, all of the appropriate safeguarding work was done by social services. That’s their job, not Sinn Féin’s. So again, it’s a situation that arose, a very unfortunate situation, a very inappropriate situation, but it was dealt with, and that’s the hallmark Mary, of how I do things.
MW: Is that matter now concluded, or are there further measures arising from it?
MMcD: No, that matter is now concluded, and that’s the hallmark of how I go about my business, Mary. However difficult the situation that presents, however challenging, I look for fairness, I look for transparency, I look for the rules that we have to be acknowledged, to be respected and to be applied. Where there’s a fallout and a consequence, there is a fallout and a consequence, irrespective of who you are.
MW: Finally, Mary Lou MacDonald, the Minister for Justice Helen McEntee said yesterday that you are a party that is not fit for Government, a party without the appropriate structures in place, and is there also now a question around the continuing leadership of Mary Lou MacDonald?
MMcD: We are a party that is more than fit for Government. We have procedures that work, that hold people to account, and let me say, in my opinion and in my experience, there has been far too little accountability in Irish public life and in Irish political parties.
You see under my leadership, without fear and I will not be cowed on this point, the rules get applied. The processes are respectful. They protect everybody’s rights, but where behaviour falls beneath standards, where there has been wrongdoing, people will face the consequences for it. I think, if I might suggest, that is an essential attribute, not just for a leader, but for any political party that would talk about Government.
MW: And your own continuing leadership?
MMcD: I lead from the front, Mary, I lead from the front and I will not be deterred. I lead a party that I am extremely proud of and all of my colleagues.
Where there are mistakes, where there are shortfalls, where there’s bad behaviour, where there are complaints, they will be dealt with honestly. They will be dealt with in accordance with the rules and procedures and that is the hallmark of how I and the collective leadership of Sinn Féin. On our watch, this is how our party operates. Accountability matters.
MW: Deputy Mary Lou McDonald, leader of Sinn Féin, thank you for your time on Morning Ireland this morning.
MMcD: Thank you, Mary. Thank you so much.
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