Behind a glass partition at a BBC studio in Belfast, staff whisper about a feisty on-air exchange earlier that day.
“There was a bit of a ding-dong,” a producer says.
On the other side of the glass, former Ireland rugby star Andrew Trimble is asked during a podcast how he feels about a Border poll (“anxious enough”, he says) and his Irishness (he’s “very proud”).
There is no tension in the room.
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“It does feel like a bit of a palate cleanser, this episode,” someone is overheard remarking, comparing it to the clash with a loyalist blogger in a previous recording.
The Trimble interview features in a new podcast series, Borderland – UK or United Ireland? It’s the first time BBC Northern Ireland has tackled the unity debate in this way and the broadcaster describes the show as landmark.
But it was the choice of hosts that made headlines last month when it emerged that two high-profile former MPs had agreed to the job.
Ex-Sinn Féin Fermanagh South Tyrone MP Michelle Gildernew and former DUP North Antrim MP Ian Paisley jnr suffered humiliating electoral defeats last year.
To date they have said little about their departure from politics – in Paisley’s case, there has been silence – or their relationship with their respective parties.
The pair have known each other since the late 1990s and are diametrically opposed on the constitutional question.
They agreed to speak with The Irish Times last week ahead of the podcast airing.
Sitting opposite each other in the studio – the programme’s main presenter is BBC NI journalist Chris Buckler – they have an easy rapport despite disagreeing on most subjects on and off air.
Gildernew (55) was approached by Buckler with the idea when she was doing analysis of the Republic’s general election last December.
“I was intrigued at the thought of it. When they told me that the unionist was Ian Paisley jnr, I said, ‘That’s okay, I can work with him, that’s grand’.
“We’ve known each other a lifetime.”
Paisley (58) agrees that the show’s pairing was “no surprise” when it was first pitched to him.
He says he feels “liberated” to express his views “because I’m no longer an MP”.
In the first episode Paisley says he would be “open” to the idea of a Border poll but he hasn’t heard a “persuasive argument” for it and remains a “true believer in Britain and this place being British”.
“I would be absolutely open to it; look, if there’s a discussion on this, I think it would be madness to be complacent about what could happen,” he tells The Irish Times.
“But I would want to do everything to avoid it happening.”
Gildernew, a former Stormont agriculture minister, MLA and party stalwart for 30 years, is scathing in her assessment of the North.
“The six counties is a s**thole, that’s the problem ... The six counties on their own don’t work, they’ll never work. As an island, we’re better off [united] socially, economically,” she says during a visit with Paisley to Derry’s Cultúrlann Centre for the programme.
Is this an attack on devolution and those heading up Stormont? Gildernew says no.
She says she “threw” herself into elected roles at Stormont and Westminster.
“It’s not a criticism of our Government, it’s the place. I don’t think the six counties has ever worked,” she says. “Partition has failed us all, nationalist and republican and unionist and loyalist.
“I went in, heart and a half, to make that executive work, went in to work on behalf of every farmer, not just in the six counties but I had to take decisions on foot and mouth (disease) that affected farmers right across the island of Ireland.
“I would never sit back and say, this place is a s**thole and I’m not going to do anything about it, I did my best to work within the parameters I was given.”
Paisley dismisses her assessment as “appalling” while conceding that “Northern Ireland isn’t performing to its full potential”.
“Is the Republic of Ireland performing to its full potential? No,” he says.
“The duty is to try and fix that. In this debate and coming to it – and Michelle and me have had those conversations – I think I have genuinely tried to engage and acknowledge and accept that if I want to make this place thrive, I have to understand my neighbour better, understand what makes them who they are.”
[ Respectful talks on new Ireland needed, says DUP founder memberOpens in new window ]
As the pair pack up to go, it is Gildernew who is more forthcoming about the past year.
In May, Sinn Féin ended her paid employment contract with the party, a year after she stood down as an MP to run as a candidate in the Republic for the European Parliament, where she was unsuccessful in her bid to win a seat in the Midlands-North-West constituency.
She remains a Sinn Féin “activist” and member.
“It has been quite difficult, there have definitely been challenges. I’m not going to gloss over them,” she says.
“It’s been a fairly rough couple of years but I’ve come out the other side. I’m still a mother. I’m a carer to my husband: Jimmy had a stroke a few years ago.”
Clutching a gold necklace engraved with Mamó around her neck – she tells Paisley it’s the Irish for grandmother – she says she loves her new role “though I’m too young to be called granny”, she adds, laughing.
Both she and Paisley admit that their political careers forged their identity.
Paisley’s shock defeat in last year’s UK general election saw him unseated in the Bible belt constituency where he and his late father and DUP founder, Rev Ian Paisley, had between them served as MPs for 54 years.
A “seismic political earthquake in North Antrim” was how TUV leader Jim Allister described his victory.
However, Paisley remains tight lipped about the impact of the loss.
“I’ve never commented on it since July 4th, 2024, and I’m not doing it today. I am keeping busy.”
